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greyhawk vs Universal Grey Paint vs Pull down shade

15K views 26 replies 12 participants last post by  dm 
#1 ·
I have a Panasonic 711XU LCD Projector. Using a HTPC Radeon 7500 Windows XP Zoomplayer with Ravisent filters to display. My camera is a 1.4 Mpixel older olympus D450. Camera set to no flash, tripod mounted, 160 ISO. 5th element superbit DVD.


Resulting pictures do not really do the image justice they are a little darker than what I see with my eyes. But what the heck, I will post them anyway! I cropped the images but did not touch them up before posting.


DIY screen, Glidden evermore latex flat Universal Grey Paint:
 
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#5 ·
Looks like it doesn't really matter what you use (except maybe a better camera). You are looking at the real thing... what are your conclusions? Be nice to compare to a white screen (DIY Parkland Plastics). I tend to like the Grayhawk sample on the last shot, but at the price prefer the painted screen.
 
#6 ·
differences are there. Look at the cheek bones, eyes and eyebrows. In general I use my universal grey painted wall screen for HDTV and DVD 16:9 fairly dark room viewing. I use the pull down shade for 4:3 stuff (HTPC dscaler'ed NTSC, etc). There is a little more gain in the pull down shade so I can leave the lights on a little more. However with the 711xu and 1200 lum (econ mode), gain and light output has not been much of an issue.


I was not wow'ed enough by the greyhawk sample to consider buying one at this time. A full greyhawk screen vs just the sample might make more of an impact but I am not willing to spend the $$ at the moment to find out.


I will likely replace the pull down shade with a manual da-lite matt white 4:3 pull down screen soon. The home depot shade is cheap. But it has lots of waves in it and the pull up/down spring mechanism sucks.
 
#7 ·
I just got a 701XU myself, and am looking at screen options. Going tomorrow to look at Da-lite and a few others. Do you see much of a difference with your HTPC over just a progressive scan player? I thought the projector itself had a good scaler. My goal is a rear screen, but unless I can find an "inexpensive" one that I'm happy with, I may go Front projection. Looks great on a gray wall, I assume a "real" screen should be better. No Parkland Plastic material to be found here in Austin... I looked at the pull down shade at HD, but I remembered how wrinkled they can look... looks like it's going to be a long process! I haven't decided if this forum lengthens or shortens that process.... it helps you narrow things down faster, but gives you a whole lot more things to narrow down!
 
#8 ·
at home, I have never driven the 711xu with anything other than my HTPC radeon 7500 or Hipix HDTV card.


In the dealer's showroom I saw the projector with a progressive DVD player (bypassing the panny scaller) and with the DVD player into the svideo inputs (using the panny scaller). I thought the internal scaller on the panny was pretty good, but I cannot really compare it to the HTPC since I have not setup a comparision between the two directly.


Sorry I cannot help you more on your question.


Even tho the home depot shade has wrinkles and waves, it is cheap and can be useful in figuring out your ultimate screen size and location. The pull down shade comes in sizes upto 73" wide. I used the shade to help me figure out how large a screen (sometimes zooming out to the point where part of the image spilled over the edges of the 73" shade) I wanted to build/buy. Looking at factors like brightness and screen door vs viewing distances and screen size.
 
#9 ·
Thanks for posting the shots dm. Even though contrast is up a tad w/ the greyhawk, My take from the pic.s is that skin tone is more natural with your diy. The pull down shade is not bad either and is a great idea for a second room instant screen.

-Noam
 
#11 ·
Did you just paint the wall? Or did you actually build a screen with masking? I am getting the same projector and I am considering a greyhawk or maybe painting the wall with your paint suggestion and putting up curtains for side masking. Let me know a little bit more about your DIY.
 
#12 ·
I got a 4'x8' sheet of "hardboard". Hardboard is 1/8 inch thick or so and is the same material as "pegboard" but with out the little holes.


I had home depot cut the sheet down to 46x81 inches. I then used homedepot generic primer to paint the smoother side of the hardboard. Then added 2 layers of Gidden flat universal grey paint.


I then cut 1x3 inch pine wood trim into a rectangular frame. The 1x3's where painted flat black. I used the 1x3's to frame/screw the hardboard to the wall. Screws go thru the 1x3's but not the hardboard. The hardboard just rests on the bottom 1x3 screw's and is pinched against the wall by the left/right/top 1x3's. The 1x3's overlap 1/2 inch each side of the hardboard to make it an even 45x80" viewable screen. This free floating solution I thought would let me remove the board easier for cleaning and possible repainting if needed.


If I had to do it again, I would have made the hardboard a full 48x86" and used the 1x3's to trim it down to 45x80 and pass the screws thru the 1x3's AND the hardboard. While the hardboard in my setup is very securly held to the wall, there is a slight bulge in the middle where the board bulges out from the wall since it is somewhat free floating behind the 1x3's. It is afterall only 1/8" thick wood.


I have since also purchased 1" thick foam insulation board at home depot (~$5 for 24x96 inch sheet). I used black velvet from handcock fabrics (expensive at $13/yard x 42") to cover the foam sheets cut for masking the 45x80 down for 1:2.35 viewing. Duct tape to seal the edges of the velvet and fix it to the foam board. Velcro strips hold the masking board's to the 1x3" frameing boards.


My room is dark brown paneled wood. I have not seen a need for black curtains on either side of the screen. However, the black trim definately is "blacker" than the wood paneling and definately makes a differance in the preceived image quality and punch. The next time I might use 1x4 or 1x6 trim to further enhance the black frame around the screen by making it bigger.
 
#13 ·
dm,


I've gone a similar path as you. I was ready to order a Grayhawk based on hype and recommendations alone. After I got the sample and began to compare it with other screen materials I decided to try a couple of DIY prototypes.


My latest DIY is also hardboard cut to 48"x89", primed with Home Depot white flat primer, and finally painted with two coats of Behr flat latex color matched to Dalite HC Da-matt. I finally got to try it last evening and I'm very happy so far. My family and I will give it a good trial over the weekend. If it passes the family test, then I plan to make a final screen with 1/2" MDF. I find the hardboard too flexible.


Hardboard cost was around $8CDN. The MDF will be about $49CDN.


I plan to mount the MDF with wall mirror mounts and fasten velvet covered trim around the perimeter for looks and overscan absorption.


I also plan to invest $100CDN into a power paint sprayer to give a smoother coating.


Ray
 
#15 ·
Ray,


Be careful using mirror mounts for a large board of MDF. The MDF will be HEAVY. I tried using angled metal brackets and they were bent and wrecked instantly (fortunately we hadn't even let go of the board so it didn't fall)!


We ended up attaching a 1X3 board to the studs horizontally and setting the screen board on top of that and using the angle brackets to secure it. That way the angle brackets weren't holding the full weight of the board. Then we built a velvet border around the screen (see website in sig for details).


Mike
 
#16 ·
Mike,


I had admired your website and screen before. Thanks for the advise. The 1x3 makes sense and will actually create a great border for the velvet. Where did you get the angled trim?


Ray
 
#17 ·
FYI, for anyone who is using universal grey. I went to a photo store and they used a colormeter to measure the refractive index of a Universal Grey paint sample.


He measured it at .18


That is pretty close to a 2 on the grey scale of a Kodak Color Separation Guide color chart (Q-14) that he also had in the store.


I have been told that Goo systems Digital Grey Lite is near a 1 on the kodak scale and regular Digital Grey is near a 2.


I am thinking of repainting my screen with Goo and I was curious of the difference in shades.
 
#18 ·
If you enjoy the results of Glidden's universal grey you'll probably love their misty evening grey. Is seems to have the favorable attributes of grey paint yet doesn't crush the whites. It's your call. Best wishes.


PS: I can't stress the importance of priming all woods and hardboards prior to painting. The paint simply comes out seemless and smooth even with roller application. Kilz 2 is the primer of choice when working with latex.
 
#19 ·
This thread continues my interest in the difference between ME and UG. The difference between the two Glidden formulations is that UG is a "perfect"grey ie. it is made up of only white and lamp black, there are no colors in the formula. ME has some blue and (I don't have it here and don't remember, but maybe CMRA can post it from the swatch) pigments added to the formula. This is likely the source of the ME=blueish tint posts in other threads.


My question(s) - is there some advantage to having a fully color neutral surface (ie. pure white or "perfect" grey?) What is the best way to increase gain in a grey paint - go from flat to eggshell (seems like a bad idea but why?) Use a glaze? Add something else to the paint?


It seems like the custom formulations are just another (albeit creative) way to get grey paint with gain - it seems like it should be possible to get the same results starting with a good grey.


Finally - just got the x1 - it is projecting on a GREEN wall, pastel base eggshell, pretty strong light green with a LOT of grey pumped into it (though it doesn't look grey). The thing is - the picture looks damn good - most particularly the whites are pure white - the PJ seems to slice right through the background. The skin tones are entirely natuarl as well. Certainly the depth/blacks need some help which is why I would never leave it this way - but my last question is: why does this look so good and yet slight variations in the various white/grey formulas deliver such significant changes in image quality?
 
#20 ·
Just a reminder;

Da-Lite High Contrast Cinema Vision is available for about &5.00 a sq' as cut to order material only. If you're DIY-ing it anyway, making a frame for this should be easier than a lot of the scenarios mentioned above. You get a little gain and very good contrast at a bargain price.

I tried a number of home made alternatives and I am now very happy with this solution.

Most simple grey paints and fabrics will make blacks darker because they make everything darker. This isn't getting you better contrast, it's just soaking up lumens. -bd


From the Cousin's Video site:

High Contrast Cinema Vision__ Gain: 1.1, Viewing Angle: 45°_

Designed for today’s moderate output DLP and LCD projectors, this screen surface is a great choice when video images are the main source of information being projected and where ambient light is moderately controlled. With this specially designed gray base surface and a reflective top surface, this screen material is able to provide very good black levels without sacrificing the white level output. With its enhanced black levels and brilliant white levels, this screen surface provides deep life-like colors and greater detail and sharpness to the image. Screen surface can be cleaned with a mild soap and water solution. Flame retardant and mildew resistant._
 
#21 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by jsm88
Finally - just got the x1 - it is projecting on a GREEN wall, pastel base eggshell, pretty strong light green with a LOT of grey pumped into it (though it doesn't look grey). The thing is - the picture looks damn good - most particularly the whites are pure white
Try holding up a pure white screen material over part of the image so you can compare whites. Surely you will see a difference.


Without having a reference it's very difficult to judge colors.
 
#22 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by jsm88
This thread continues my interest in the difference between ME and UG. The difference between the two Glidden formulations is that UG is a "perfect"grey ie. it is made up of only white and lamp black, there are no colors in the formula. ME has some blue and (I don't have it here and don't remember, but maybe CMRA can post it from the swatch) pigments added to the formula. This is likely the source of the ME=blueish tint posts in other threads.
Just a clarification, dispite its name, Glidden Universal Grey has mostly lamp black but also a little red and yellow oxide color added. You may be thinking of Glidden Absolute Grey. I believe that that is mixed with lamp black only.
 
#23 ·
Someone with bit of texting experience just tested our Digital Grey Basecoat and Digital Grey Topcoat, and obtained a on-axis gain of 1.5. It has to cure to get this high in output.....
 
#24 ·
For a black screen border to my painted wall in Behr UPW (113' 16x9) I use a wide strip of the fuzzy portion of sticky-backed velcro tape from Home Depot which goes on easy and loooks just great. Outside the tape, for the rest of the wall I painted in a Behr satin blue-black.


-Preston
 
#25 ·
Quote:
Just a clarification, dispite its name, Glidden Universal Grey has mostly lamp black but also a little red and yellow oxide color added. You may be thinking of Glidden Absolute Grey. I believe that that is mixed with lamp black only.
yeah, i did mean absolute grey, for some reason I keep mixing those up. I had suggested on another thread that the reason for the apparent superiority of ME is the presence of the blue tints in it as opposed to a perfect grey - that perhaps the blue eliminates the white crush problem while allowing the grey to do its' job on the blacks - with the only side effect being a slight blue tinting on bright whites which many people prefer anyway.


I have to wonder then how a more custom grey (silver met mixes, ddog, goo, etc.) might do with measured addition of yellow and green tints - I have to assume that those plain greys are superior to a glidden grey that is, after all, not designed for its optical properties, with the blue tint ME solution providing the punch that most have felt grey lacks (see the very long white/grey/silver thread)


I would be very interested to see the goo folks try this - I'm guessing they will say they have and that their product is the best there is, but as there is some feeling here in the community that their grey product does not beat an off the shelf paint I'm guessing that there might be some room for improvement. You've got a full chem/mixing/testing facility folks. Heck, new and improved goo grey (NOW WITH BLUE!) just means they get to sell more as previous buyers throw down a new coat.
 
#26 ·
Our product completely wipes the floor with any given off the shelf paint product. Mixed or otherwise.


Every situation is different, and no two people's opinions are the same. given all that, our product still wipes the floor with any mixed or store bought paint product.


There is no reason to believe that another person cannot compete directly with our product, but their overall understanding of coatings design, color, absorption, physics, etc..had better be pretty complete and they be good at the job of coatings formulation.. and very determined.


Another way to think of it is: You can enter the F1 racing game.. but can you beat McLaren?
 
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